We Take the Load Off of Them

Host: Brittany Greco, Senior Communications Specialist, Science and Technology Directorate, Department of Homeland Security

Guest: Cassy Robinson, National Urban Security Technology Laboratory Engineer, Science and Technology Directorate, Department of Homeland Security

[00:00:00] Cassy: When we were at Ground Zero, we had taken our robots with us, more than 20 years ago now. So, they could not make it over that terrain that was present there. It was just the most unstructured, terrible environment ever. Our team led the development of urban search and rescue needs. And one thing that came out of that was a DHS sponsored project for response robot standards that is still going on today. 

[00:00:25] Dave DeLizza: This is Technologically Speaking, the official podcast for the Department of Homeland Security Science and Technology Directorate, or S and T, as we call it. Join us as we meet the science and technology experts on the frontlines keeping America safe.

[00:00:39] Brittany: Hello, everyone, and welcome to Technologically Speaking, the official podcast of S&T, the DHS Sience and Technology Directorate. I am one of your hosts, Brittany Greco. We are very honored today to have one of our engineers from the National Urban Security Technology Laboratory, or NUSTL, Ms. Cassy Robinson. Cassy, thank you so much for being here today.

[00:00:58] Cassy: Thank you, Brittany. I'm happy to be here.

[00:01:00] Brittany: So, people often don't realize that, you know, the nation's law enforcement firefighters, emergency medical services, many others are part of that homeland security community. So, can you tell us a little bit about your background working with first responders and what brought you to S&T?

[00:01:16] Cassy: Yes, I've been working with first responders for about 20 years. It wasn't what I started out doing in my career, but somehow, I came into it. I started out as an engineer in Aiken, South Carolina, and I worked in robotics. And the reason we had a robotics group is because there were a lot of places at this facility where people couldn't go, but we needed to do work. We couldn't physically get people into the space, or it could have been radioactive materials or hazardous chemicals or some other thing that kept people out of that location. So, we would send in robotics or other remote tools with video cameras on them to do work because we never knew what we were going to be faced with out there. One of the things that we were able to do through the Department of Justice was start helping local law enforcement. We would get a call from our local narcotics agency asking us, “Can you help us do covert surveillance in this location or that?” And we had all these tools, so we would just put together a system and take it over and help them deploy it. So, that was how I got started working with responders and it kind of proceeded from there.

[00:02:19] Brittany: As an engineer, it must have been really fun and interesting to, you know, get a question about like, “Well, we want to do this. Can you help us figure out a solution to that?” I mean, my understanding of engineers is like, “Oh, good, a new problem. You know, I would love to sink my teeth into that.” Was that the case for you?

[00:02:34] Cassy: As an engineer, I love it when somebody says, “I have a problem,” or “I need something fixed.” Because we are all about solving problems. That is something engineers thrive on.

[00:02:44] Brittany: Mm-hmm. That's exciting. So, can you tell us a little bit more about your career trajectory before coming to NUSTL? I understand you got to support some of the 9/11 recovery efforts.

[00:02:53] Cassy: Yes. So, that came out of that experience of being in robotics. So, when the terrorist attacks happened on 9/11 in New York City, we got a call from Department of Justice asking if we could load up our cache of equipment and bring it to Ground Zero to help the urban search and rescue teams who were going into the, I'm going to call it the debris field, the area of destruction. We tried robotics, but they just could not navigate that environment.

[00:03:20] Brittany: Yeah.

[00:03:20] Cassy: We had, a large number of very small cameras and light assemblies and extendable poles, like you might use a painter's pole to paint your house. So, we put together these assemblies and we gave them to urban search and rescue team so they could go into that debris field. And as they found like an opening that may lead into a void space or a cavity where people could be, they could just insert this camera through that small opening into a larger opening and look for people.

[00:03:47] Brittany: Oh yeah. 

[00:03:48] Cassy: We also helped somewhat put some camera assemblies on search dogs that went into the debris field. We could then record what the dogs were seeing Yeah, and then for the fire department, they would go up and spend like eight or 10- or 12-hour shifts looking down on the debris field with binoculars to try to spot things that would help them locate people. So, then we came in with pan-tilt-zoom cameras that could be remotely controlled using a joystick and display the video on a big screen TV so that, instead of having to hold binoculars and stare through them all day long, they could just pan this camera round and zoom in on things and also record it.

[00:04:28] Brittany: Oh yeah. That does sound like a big benefit, especially in such a, you know, charged emotional time.

[00:04:35] Cassy: Yes. And honestly, these are low tech solutions, but they did the job in that situation

[00:04:41] Brittany: Those cameras – can you tell us a little bit more about that?

[00:04:44] Cassy: If you were putting up these cameras in just a normal situation, you could do it in a couple of hours, all of them. But it took us days to actually get this done. So, the fire department picked six high-rise buildings around Ground Zero where they wanted these pan-tilt-zoom cameras. So, we literally had to do everything by hand. We would put the assemblies together, including making some mounts out of wood to attach to the side of the building. And we get it all wired up and hooked up and tested in our little workshop.

[00:05:16] Brittany: Wow

[00:05:16] Cassy: So, it was in the bottom of World Trade Center Two, and we would put all these things together. It would probably take us like two hours. Again, it's a weird work environment where you don't just have every perfect tool. Then, we had to put everything in these big five-gallon buckets so that we could carry it up the stairs of the building.

[00:05:32] Brittany: Oh my gosh.

[00:05:33] Cassy: And the fire department would help us. And this is just a funny thing. I can remember trudging up the stairs in one of these buildings, and I was pretty slow. And this firefighter walked by, and he just grabbed that bucket out of my hand, and it was like he was almost running up the stairs. Just another shoutout to the incredible things that firefighters do.

[00:05:51] Brittany: So, were you like dangling outside of a window or on the roof? Like how did you attach those to the buildings?

[00:05:57] Cassy: We attached it in any way we could, but a lot of times, because a lot of windows around grounds zero were broken out, there was the window ledge and we would like bolt it to that window ledge.

[00:06:07] Brittany: Wow, I mean that's definitely the, adapting to the situation, overcoming so many challenges. It's kind of figuring out like, what do we have, what can we use, how can we make this, you know, something that'll stay up. Well, thank you so much for your service during that time. It sounds like just finding even small ways to make things more efficient really helped the people who were on the ground there doing the search and rescue efforts.

[00:06:26] Cassy: It was a terrible situation, as everybody knows, but also very rewarding just to be able to do something to help. Because I know we all felt that way after that attack. We're like, “I want to do something.”

[00:06:40] Brittany: Oh yeah, definitely. So, can you tell us a bit more about what brought you to S&T specifically or to, the National Urban Security Technology Laboratory, NUSTL?”

[00:06:48] Cassy: Yes. Well, as I said, I didn't start out with first responders, but I came into that role and, I started, uh, back in about the 2004ish timeframe. I had an assignment with the Department of Justice to work on first responders’ standards, which then led to about 11 years at the National Institute of Standards and Technology in Maryland.

[00:07:09] Brittany: Wow. Yeah.

[00:07:10] Cassy: From there, while I was there, I worked with some engineers from NUSTL because I did first responder equipment standards and NUSTL does everything first responders. It was a perfect collaboration, and it was so engaging. “What? NUSTL did that?” I jumped ship and came to S&T, and it's even more fun than just working in standards.

[00:07:34] Brittany: Oh, good. What sort of projects have you been working on at NUSTL over the past few years?

[00:07:38] Cassy: One of the very first projects that I got was working with Big City Fire Working Group. We call it BCF for short. That's a working group that's organized under DHS's First Responder Resource Group, and my laboratory, NUSTL, manages and oversees that group's activities and projects. So, the Big City Fire members, they represent 12 of the largest fire departments in the United States. And they're important because they deal with some of the most unique challenges that a department could have, like really dense populations, dense housing, high rise buildings, underground tunnels, high value targets for active assailant attacks and more. So, Big City Fire provides a forum for discussing their challenges and collaborating on solutions. So, that project takes a lot of time.

[00:08:25] Brittany: I bet because just coordinating among that many people who are, you know, very busy doing critical work.

[00:08:31] Cassy: We do our best to take time to hear from them on what their needs are and give them time to, to talk amongst themselves. We only meet with them once a month, virtually for an hour, and then once a year we get together face to face. That's the whole working group. But we also have subgroups that meet on a more regular basis.

[00:08:49] Brittany: What are some of those subgroups focused on?

[00:08:52] Cassy: One of the very first challenges that Big City Fire identified was lithium-ion battery fires in micro mobility devices and electric vehicles. And then, NUSTL initiated a new program, and our new program called the Energy Innovation and Public Safety Program focused on addressing those challenges.

[00:09:11] Brittany: Can you outline one of the big challenges that lithium-ion batteries present to firefighters?

[00:09:15] Cassy: Lithium-ion batteries, as well as other high energy density batteries, are a problem because they pose significant risks. So, they can cause fire and explosions unexpectedly. They can go into thermal runaway. They have, they emit toxic gas into the atmosphere, and we don't know what that does to the people who are around when that toxic gas comes out. And they can also lead to electric shock.

[00:09:38] Brittany: So, it's a new threat that the firefighters are having to deal with. And it sounds like there's still a lot of information being gathered and research being done to figure out what are those concrete risks and how to overcome them.

[00:09:50] Cassy: That is correct. And I think this research will take several years, but there are a lot of organizations who are collaborating together to help solve this problem.

[00:09:58] Brittany: So, what is the benefit then of bringing together, you know, the biggest, the largest 12 firefighting organizations in the country?

[00:10:05] Cassy: We ask them questions to delve into, “Well, what are you facing in your city as Seattle? What are you facing in New York City or Philadelphia or Atlanta?” And they just begin talking with each other and saying, “Well, this is what we face.” And someone else may chime in and say, “Well, we face that as well, and we've solved it in this way.” So, it's that collaboration and allowing these people to have a forum so that they can have a conversation.

[00:10:30] Brittany: And that's so valuable. You know, so often we hear from folks, you know, maybe that you're just talking to somebody at a conference or a meeting or something, and it's those informal discussions where you really get to dig in deep into a topic that lead to, you know, really revelatory discussions about, oh, you know, we've solved it this way, or, you know, we need some help with this. Have you been in the room when that sort of aha moment happens?

[00:10:54] Cassy: Oh yes. Another example of this kind of need coming out during a conversation is they raised, actually, I think Seattle Fire Department raised the issue of having the need for emergency disconnects at electric vehicle fast charging stations so that they could cut the power in the event of an electrical fire. And many people may have seen this or not even noticed, but regular gas stations have this big red mushroom button that's available. So, if there's a fire at a gas pump, you can hit that button and it shuts the flow of fuel. So, disconnect is similar to that, although it's shutting down the electrical power and that way you can have electric disconnects actually installed in places is you have to make it part of the National Electric Code. And, so, the Big City Fire group, they not only raised this need, but then they participated in a task group of experts along with NUSTL representing the fire service, and also working with experts from industry to propose and make a change to the National Electric Code, which is in process right now. There's one more vote in June before that is actually adopted into the code.

[00:12:05] Brittany: That's wonderful. And it does sound like it's sort of the natural progression of, you know, there's new technology available. Like you said, it's, “Where can we have those safety, you know, features built in?” Because the point you raised about, you know, this is a feature that's in gas stations already, so it makes sense to say, “Well, can we do that here?”

[00:12:22] Cassy: Yes. But without Big City Fire raising it, I would've never thought of it. It comes straight from the practitioners in the field.

[00:12:28] Brittany: I can't remember how many discussions I've had with folks where you think like, “Oh, well this is like a commonsense thing, you know, isn't that being done?” And sometimes it is worth checking. Like, “Nope, we have to make sure that's built into the system now.” Are there any other, you know, projects that are top of mind for the group right now?

[00:12:44] Cassy: Yeah, some of the things we're working on now are a contract for body armor and ballistic helmets, contract for drones and a contract for fire apparatus. And, again, we are just facilitating Big City Fire members working with cooperative purchasing groups to do that kind of bridging the gap, helping them with standards, helping them with some logistics, but they're doing the work and providing their requirements and actually feeding that. The benefit in the end to them will be that it will result in reduced department time and resources required for a purchase. It ensures that available standards are met. And then it also results in a lower cost for their equipment.

[00:13:25] Brittany: Oh, that's critical. Any way that they can save money is vital to these organizations. So, can you tell us more about the standards aspect of that? 

[00:13:33] Cassy: Body Armor is probably the most well-known responder equipment standard. It's been around for about 40 years, published by the National Institute of Justice, and they actually have an amazing compliance testing program to ensure that armor is tested to that standard. There's also the Ballistic Vest Partnership grant program that provides funding to agencies who buy armor that meets that standard, so they really have the whole package there for that particular piece of equipment. It's not been the case for other things for law enforcement, such as ballistic helmets and ballistic shields. We have just recently published two ASTM International standards – one for ballistic helmets and one for ballistic shields. And, we've also set up a verification program, kind of like the National Institute of Justice does for Body Armor, but a simpler program, to make sure that equipment actually meets standards and to kind of complete that package.

[00:14:35] Brittany: So, when we say that there's a standard for, let's say a ballistic shield, what does that mean as far as, you know, establishing trust or verifying that it, that it works as intended?

[00:14:44] Cassy: And so typically a standard, especially for ballistic equipment, you have performance requirements. So, a baseline of this is what the equipment shall do. Then, there are also test methods that shall be followed to verify that performance. Those are the two things you need to make sure equipment works. So, you have the performance requirements, and you test it in the specific way. So, everything gets tested in exactly the same way.

[00:15:10] Brittany: Okay.

[00:15:11] Cassy: So, for body armor, we have resistance to penetration, meaning bullets don't go through the armor and some other performance requirements like that.

[00:15:21] Brittany: They can say, all right, we know this is gonna work because it's been tested, you know, in a realistic setting, or to the standards that we know are critical to our success and safety.

[00:15:30] Cassy: That's exactly right. The purchaser doesn't have to worry about the performance of the equipment. They can then focus on, “Well, which one meets my operational needs the best?” For instance, for body armor, “Which one is the best fit? Which one has the greatest array of sizes, et cetera?”

[00:15:46] Brittany: It's like, well, responders have very important day jobs. They don't need to be focused on all this stuff. 

[00:15:51] Cassy: Yes, and you just really summed up what NUSTL does for responders. We take the load off of them, so they don't have to do market research, they don't have to do testing. 

[00:16:00] Brittany: And NUSTL is really laser focused on the first responder community.

[00:16:03] Cassy: Yes, we manage a program called the system assessment and validation for emergency responders program. We refer to it as SAVER for short. We do market surveys of particular pieces of equipment, and so it's kind of like the consumer reports for responders.

[00:16:20] Brittany: Oh, okay. 

[00:16:21] Cassy: We also do some physical assessments of equipment. We bring together a focus group of responders from usually across the country, so it represents different geographical locations, different size agencies. We bring them together and say, “What do you need this equipment to do? And what do you have to do while you're using this equipment? So, can you operate with it? What are your operational needs and requirements? What capabilities do you need it to have?” And then we ask, “And what scenarios do you use this in?” We put them through those operational scenarios so that they can actually go hands-on with the equipment and perform as they would in reality in our simulated scenarios. And then we document what they say. We ask them a series of questions about “How usable was this equipment? Did it do what you needed it to do? Could you actually use it with your other equipment?” So, that's the interoperability aspect. “Did it break while you were using it? Is it durable? Does it seem like it would stand up under harsh conditions?” And then we write an assessment report.

[00:17:21] Brittany: Then, the first responders can take that information and then they get to make the decision. So, it's not like anything specific is being endorsed; it's just saying, “Here. We did a lot of the research so you can make these decisions.”

[00:17:31] Cassy: I am really glad you made that point. NUSTL does not recommend a particular product ever. We just provide the information and allow the responders to make their decision.

[00:17:41] Brittany: There's a lot of shared needs, but there's also really specific circumstances. You know, a fire in Kansas City is going to look a lot different than a fire in Maui, for example, where, you know, it's just different conditions, different, you know, response sizes, different resources available. There's not a one-size-fits all solution. 

[00:17:59] Cassy: Every situation is different and they have to make the decisions that work for them and their situation.

[00:18:05] Brittany: Do you have any examples of, either recent field assessments or recent, you know, evaluations of technology that went into a market survey report? Anything that was particularly interesting to you?

[00:18:15] Cassy: Yes, we are just finishing up a market survey report for closed circuit, self-contained breathing apparatus. They're sometimes called “rebreathers,” and most people are familiar with the typically used piece of equipment called a self-contained breathing apparatus. But it's typically open circuit, meaning it's just you're breathing air from an oxygen tank or an air cylinder, and so that protects you from breathing in contaminated air in a smoky or toxic filled environment. Closed circuit, self-contained breathing apparatus are different, in that you actually rebreathe the air. So, you breathe out and that air you exhale goes through a scrubber system to take out carbon dioxide, and then oxygen from a small tank supplements that air and then you rebreathe it. So, we just completed a market survey; it'll be published soon. It's particularly useful and necessary in underground tunnel operations.

[00:19:16] Brittany: Oh.

[00:19:16] Cassy: So, where there is no oxygen in the atmosphere, they call that IDLH – immediately dangerous to life and health – when there's not oxygen in the environment. So, that could happen in an underground tunnel, where there may not be an access point within a reasonable distance from where the firefighter goes into where they can actually exit. They still have to have time to do their operations. So, a rebreather will give you about four hours of use, whereas an open circuit, typical self-contained breathing apparatus will only give you 30 or 45 minutes.

[00:19:52] Brittany: Wow, that's quite a difference.

[00:19:55] Cassy: It is. It can make all the difference for a firefighter who's in an underground tunnel.

[00:20:00] Brittany: Oh, nice. So, let's talk a little bit more about your background and, you know, things that you find outside of work that are still fun.

[00:20:08] Cassy: Oh goodness, yes. My biggest hobby is pickleball and I am always looking for anybody to play anytime. 

[00:20:15] Brittany: That sounds cool.

[00:20:16] Cassy: Yeah, I like to spend a lot of time outside. So, I live in a very rural area, very rural, a place where I'm surrounded by family land, so there's a lot of opportunities to walk through woods. I actually have an off-grid place that I like to go and camp out on the weekends.

[00:20:34] Brittany: Oh, that's nice. Can you tell us a little bit about the Ridge Peach Festival, which I understand is a very fun, big to-do in your area.

[00:20:43] Cassy: Oh, it is. That's held in Trenton, South Carolina. Just a little tiny speck on a map. The Ridge Peach Festival, it has actually been going for more than 50 years. And, gosh, my family has been involved for many years in actually planning and doing things for the festival. My sister and I used to plan the parade and we, there's a general store where we sell like canned peaches, homemade canned peaches, pickled peaches, candied peaches, peach pies, peach ice cream. We have it all.

[00:21:18] Brittany: Oh, that sounds like a dream. I know that robotics in response is something that you're working on and that you're interested in. Can you tell us a little bit more about how you see, robots supporting response efforts?

[00:21:30] Cassy: Oh yes, we actually have a project for robots in, under Big City Fire. Robots are so important in taking the responder out of the danger, so if you can deploy a robot into a situation and not have to send any human, that is always the best option. So, especially drones are having a tremendous impact in terms of providing situational awareness of a fire that's in progress. It could be a wildfire, it could be a structure fire. I know that New York City has used drones to, when there is a fire up on a tall building, they can't quite get the view they need. And they've actually talked about, an effective use of drones in this particular application when they had a fire, I think it was a crane fire, very high up on a tall building, and they were, sending water over to suppress the fire. And once they saw the drone image, they realized, oh, they weren't actually hitting the fire. And they could reposition the water and put the fire out. So, such a small tool is so valuable.

[00:22:32] Brittany: It does make sense to say, “Alright, is this a situation where we can send a robot first?” There's never going to be a time where humans are completely out of the loop, but it's figuring out, I think, “How do we promote responder safety, given the tools and technologies we have?”

[00:22:47] Cassy: That's right. The tools have to be useful for the first responder in their situation and it definitely, we have to have their input to make sure the tools are useful. When we were at Ground Zero, we had taken our robots with us, but these were robots of, you know, 20 years ago, more than 20 years ago now. So, they could not make it over that terrain that was present there. It was just the most unstructured, terrible environment ever. But as a result of participating in the efforts at Ground Zero, we actually, our team led the development of a study of urban search and rescue needs. And one thing that came out of that was a DHS sponsored project for response robot standards that is still going on today. It's been a really, it has made the difference in response.

[00:23:35] Brittany: Absolutely. And we appreciate the work that you do. So, looking back on your 20 years thus far, is there, are there any moments that stand out, you, you're particularly proud of?

[00:23:45] Cassy: I'm a standards geek. I'm particularly proud of the standards work that we've done. I feel like we really raised the bar for the protection and the safety of responders. But I'm really excited about the new ballistic helmet standard and ballistic shield standards because they're the very first standards that really assess the products like they need to be assessed. The standards that were used for both of those products were from the early 1980s, and they were just very minimal. They were not sufficient for today's technology.

[00:24:16] Brittany: Yeah, I think I was reading about that where it was like the materials had certain standards that they had to meet, but the actual finished product didn't necessarily have a set standard. Is that right?

[00:24:25] Cassy: What had been used for all these years, since the early eighties was a material standard. And so instead of testing an entire literal product, a shield that had a view port in it that is typically used by a responder, they would test a small, what we call a shoot pack. It's just this small square of material that kind of represents a shield. It's got the same ballistic layup in construction, so it matches a shield body, but again, it's not sufficient, so it did not test the viewport, which is really critical. That's what a law enforcement officer is actually looking through. So, if you take a bullet to the, that viewport, you need to know it's going to stop. Not strike the officer.

[00:25:09] Brittany: I think that speaks to something about, you know, the type of evaluations that you're working on, especially at NUSTL. where it is, it's grounded in reality. We want to know, “Does the actual final product work and does it work as intended?”

[00:25:22] Cassy: We want to have a level of confidence in the product, in its protective capabilities. Also, it's important when we're writing standards that manufacturers want to use the standard, which was actually a problem for our recently published Ballistic Shield Standard, is that we need competence in the whole product. But there has to be a tradeoff between a high level of confidence and can a manufacturer actually afford to do the testing. 

[00:25:49] Brittany: Oh, okay.

[00:25:51] Cassy: We recently reevaluated, and said, let's look at this. How can we design the test and the testing process so that it is more affordable and, therefore, more accessible to more manufacturers. Because we knew the large manufacturers wanted to test to the standard, but then there were a lot of smaller manufacturers that just couldn't afford it. So, we just published a new version of that standard that is much more accessible. The testing cost is greatly reduced.

[00:26:17] Brittany: I didn't even think about that earlier when we were talking about testing standards of, you know, “What is the cost of then performing those tests?” So, that is really good to know that you're also looking at ways to make those more efficient, more cost effective as well.

[00:26:29] Cassy: Yes. Well, to be frank, we have written some standards that people refuse to test to in the past, so.

[00:26:35] Brittany: Oh wow. Hey, fair enough. Better to learn from those and, you know, move in the right direction.

[00:26:40] Cassy: But like I said, it's been almost 20 years now and it's the most rewarding work I could ever imagine. I mean, being an engineer is fun, but helping first responders who literally help everybody else at great cost to themselves, is just fabulous. So, I literally am inspired by my work every day.

[00:27:01] Brittany: Oh, wow. Well, what a gift. 

[00:27:02] Cassy: It is a gift to be able to do this for a living. What a fun and rewarding job. I love it.

[00:27:08] Brittany: As we, you know, wrap up is there any big takeaway that you want folks to have who are listening?

[00:27:13] Cassy: I would like to raise responder awareness of the resources and assistance that's available through NUSTL, as well as the greater DHS Science and Technology directorate. There's just so much help that's available, so I'd love it if more responders would ask for help. We'll figure out how to make it happen.

[00:27:31] Brittany: Well, Cassy, thank you so much for a wonderful discussion today. It's been really interesting learning about your work and the impact that it's having on the first responder community.

[00:27:38] Cassy: I really appreciate you all. Thank you so much.

[00:27:41] Brittany: Thank you everyone for listening to today's episode. We'll see you next time. 

[00:27:44] Dave: Thank you for listening to Technologically Speaking. To learn more about what you've heard in this episode, check out the show notes on our website and follow us on Apple Podcasts and YouTube and on social media at DHS SciTech. D H S S C I T E C H. Bye!